38 Responses so far

1. 1. Merrie Haskell on Nov 10th, 2010 at 10:58 am

   Maybe Lapine really did sell it for a dollar.

2. 2. Kate Sullivan on Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:18 pm

   You know, as a small publisher – and a brand-new one, at that – I am cringing and shuddering at this. Or maybe it’s just because I’m having a seizure from the blue-on-black on that site.

   Seriously, there’s a reason I spent a good bit of time developing a site that LOOKS PROFESSIONAL. It’s hard enough to get taken seriously as a small digital press; if you look like crap, no one will respect you.

   I really hope Realms of Fantasy doesn’t get subsumed into this aesthetic of misery…

3. 3. John Klima on Nov 10th, 2010 at 1:03 pm

   Hey Toby, what you say sounds very familiar: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/11/realms-of-fantasy-deja-vu

   I guess I was on the right track, eh?

4. 4. Tobias Buckell on Nov 10th, 2010 at 1:05 pm

   John: great minds think alike!

5. 5. Ed Greaves on Nov 10th, 2010 at 2:18 pm

   I’m a bit concerned that there’s no clear mention if the staffing would remain the same, or will the new publisher be taking over in whole. I guess I’ll find out, as I believe I still have a year’s worth of subscription left, give or take an issue.

6. 6. Ilan Lerman on Nov 10th, 2010 at 2:39 pm

   I made a comment to the same effect, about Damnation Books status on Preditors and Editors as being Not Recommended, on Realms Facebook page when the announcement was made. And then the comment was promptly deleted. So I’m glad someone else has made the move to call them out on this.

7. 7. Michael M. Jones on Nov 10th, 2010 at 3:16 pm

   I worked for Warren during the DNA days.
   I wrote for Realms during their Sovereign media days.
   I wrote for Realms during the Tir na Nog/Warren days.

   The Warren of the Tir na Nog era was much improved from the DNA days, which is certainly saying something. I always got paid in full and on time. I credit much of the good treatment and prompt service to my editor, Doug Cohen.

   I’m extremely wary of what I’ve seen and heard of Damnation Press thus far, and what it means for the continuing fate of Realms. The December issue is ready to go, and the February issue was pretty much completed, so it’ll be two issues before we really see the shape of things. I’m just afraid we won’t even get that far, since everyone’s crying foul right out of the starting gate. Not that I can blame them.

   I’m amazed that Warren could find a publisher with as dodgy a reputation as he acquired during his DNA days. Even if everything people are saying about Damnation is unfounded, or exaggerated, that’s still a lot of bad publicity and things to make you go hmmmm.

   We’ll just have to see, though. Miracles happen.

8. 8. Steven Saus on Nov 10th, 2010 at 3:35 pm

   As fledgling authors, we often hear that a professional-looking website doesn’t mean that a company is reputable. I have to agree that the opposite is not true.

   If a company selling eBooks has an amateurish website… well, that’s a bad thing. Oy.

9. 9. Chang on Nov 10th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

   ROF is like the village bike these days: everyone’s had a ride then throw it in the ditch when they’re done.

   Pretty soon I might own it. Hoo!

10. 10. Kim Richards on Nov 10th, 2010 at 6:41 pm

    Oh yes, we paid a LOT more than $1.00.

    Did you guys actually READ the thread at AW and all the other forums spammed with this? Did you notice the date and players? Alex no longer sells his bootleg copy of The Berserk at the advice of his lawyer; Damnation Books does sell it.

    The other smear campaign didn’t work either. Same author posted as multiple people and stalked our staff. Is that someone whose advice you want to follow? Both Eternal Press and Damnation Books are stonger for having to prove ourselves. Guess you missed that.

    We love our websites. They’re current, they’re gorgeous. They successfully sell books. This is the only place I’ve seen hate on them to date. Most people actually like what they see. I guess there’s always a first.

    If you hate us without actually knowing us, that’s your problem. “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.” To each his own.

11. 11. Tobias Buckell on Nov 10th, 2010 at 6:50 pm

    You have blue text on a black background and I’m the first person to ever say your website is badly designed? Come on, really? This is basic web design 101 failure. So yeah, you look like an amateur outfit.

    Notice that I have criticized web strategy of magazines like F&SF and Asimov’s in the past, but they haven’t felt the need of accusing me of ‘hating’ them. I neither hate nor love. I’ve never even heard of you until the press release, and when I clicked on your site my eyes struggled to read BLUE text on BLACK backgrounds, something that used to be the purvey of GeoCities webpages designed by people who don’t actually have any design experience.

    Yeah, I’m dubious.

    Or part of a giant conspiracy to hate you.

    Whatever…

12. 12. Polenth on Nov 10th, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    I have read the threads on AW, which is why I know Tobias wasn’t the first to criticise the website. People on AW beat him to it. As Kim has read those threads, she knows that… so claiming Tobias was the first (and only one) to complain is more than a bit strange.

13. 13. Matthew Rotundo on Nov 10th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

    Some data points:

    I’m one of those no-name authors Damnation Books has published. It was a short story, not a novel. I found no odious clauses in the contract. I was heavily consulted on the artwork (!), which you personally may or may not like, but I’m pretty happy with it. The finished product looks good to me. DB has made the ebook available in an impressive array of places. Every time I look, it seems to be popping up somewhere else. I have been fully and fairly compensated–yes, with real money and everything. Kim has been quite professional with me from start to finish.

    Somebody please explain to me how I’ve been suckered. I’m kinda not seeing it.

14. 14. Tobias Buckell on Nov 10th, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    How much did they pay you for the story?

15. 15. Tobias Buckell on Nov 10th, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    PS: The very bottom of the site says “942 eBooks Sold
    from this website”

    Over 74 different titles? That’s roughly under 13 sales per title? I’m less than impressed.

16. 16. Jim C. Hines on Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:08 pm

    Do you know if their books are available for sale anywhere except the site? I didn’t see anything on Amazon, but I didn’t look very hard. 942 isn’t much, but I doubt DAW or Tor do many direct sales through their web sites either.

    But if that’s the primary or sole source of sales … yeah.

17. 17. Ed Greaves on Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:26 pm

    Jim, I tested a few, and found them all on Amazon’s Kindle distribution. Didn’t see them anywhere else I checked, including B&N, Smashwords, fictionwise, and Kobo.

    I’m still curious, if Kim comes back here to discuss further, will they be keeping the original editorial staff? Will they be replacing them all with their own existing staff. I think knowing that sets some of the tone as to the direction of this changeover in publisher. One of the reasons I was willing to extend my subscription to Tir na Nog was because I had faith in the existing staff, which from the editorial side remained largely unchanged. I liked the product Shawna delivered by way of stories. If that’s going to change, it might change my opinion to remain a subscriber after my current subscription runs out.

18. 18. Matthew Rotundo on Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    Tobias, $.03/word. Not the biggest check I’ve ever cashed, but not the smallest, either.

    (OK, I didn’t get a check. The money came via PayPal. But you get the idea.)

    Jim, my story’s available on Kindle here: http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Who-Hated-Halloween-ebook/dp/B0041D8BMG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&s=digital-text&qid=1283385506&sr=8-1

    Ed, here it is on Fictionwise: http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/b114102/?si=0

    And on Lybrary: http://www.lybrary.com/woman-hated-halloween-p-86368.html

19. 19. Ed Greaves on Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    Oh, addendum, I forgot to check Borders, which appears to also carry a selection of the books I checked, didn’t dig too deep there as I had the others, but I saw at least five titles I recognized from scanning through the DP website.

    On a side note, I don’t find the blue on black as jarring as you make out Toby, but it’s not what I’d call pleasant. (My wife is firmly in your camp though, and finds if quite jarring) While the site doesn’t strike me as much amatuerish as it did for you, it does feel dated. Something about the asthetic feels like early 2000′s rather than the cleaner feel I see more often today.

20. 20. Jim C. Hines on Nov 10th, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    Thanks, Ed. Apparently my search-fu sucks tonight. But that at least suggests that their sales should be better than just the relatively small number from their web site.

21. 21. Ed Greaves on Nov 10th, 2010 at 11:09 pm

    Matthew, thanks for the heads up. Yours was not one I had looked for, but through that link, I could see several hundred titles listed on Fictionwise by DP/EP. Didn’t bother to check the breakdown of how many of each, it seemed a mixed bag on the first screen, so I’ll chalk it up to just picking a few titles that were not as well distributed as others.

    My hope is that the new venture will succeed. I am a fan and subscriber of the magazine after all is said and done. And many of the authors whose work I enjoy have placed stories there in the past. I’d like it if venues that pay well stay in business to support the authors I enjoy reading. Then they can pay their bills, and I can read good stories. I consider that a win-win. Of course, for the moment, my hope does not yet exceed my trepidation. So I’ll have to revert to claiming citizenship from a state I’ve never set foot in, before I believe it.

22. 22. Rachel Swirsky on Nov 10th, 2010 at 11:27 pm

    It would be very nice if the contributors to the issue that Damnation Books is apparently publishing now would at some point be officially apprised of what’s going on. I’ve still only heard any of this through third party websites.

    –Rachel Swirsky, with part-authorship of “Mother, Maiden, Crone”

23. 23. Steven Saus on Nov 11th, 2010 at 12:45 am

    You know, on re-reading the original post, Tobias said that he was “dubious” and to “be cautious”. The sale I’ve currently gotten the most pay for (over time) was through a company who ended up selling the anthology to St. Martin’s.

    That company had a conflict advisory at Preditors & Editors.

    I did my homework, evaluated the risks and conflicts, and challenged a few bits in the contract that seemed extreme. It all worked out in the end.

    The defensiveness (and deleting of comments on Facebook) really makes me far, far more spooked than what a website looks like.

24. 24. C.M Saunders on Nov 11th, 2010 at 1:47 am

    Hi there,

    I currently have 2 novellas on the roster at Damnation Books, and I have to say that I have never experienced any problems with them whatsoever. In fact, they have always been a pleasure to deal with. I find it unfortunate that a new publisher is taking such underserved flack, mostly based on hearsay. What, exactly, is so ‘amateurish’ about their website? And maybe I would take the people posting here more seriously if they actually got the name of the person / company they are slating correct. It is Damnation BOOKS, not Damnation Press. To my knowledge such a company does not exist. Amateurs!

25. 25. Rob on Nov 11th, 2010 at 3:20 am

    I will not submit to a publication with a website like that. Maybe your intentions are good, but if your business site doesn’t look professional, I can’t help wondering if your whole operation is a half-assed job. But that’s just me, I’ll let others decide for themselves.

26. 26. Patrick Samphire on Nov 11th, 2010 at 6:59 am

    Personally, I dislike their website design (light text on dark background is *really* hard to read for a large number of people), but to be fair, it is the predominant ascetic for horror and/or dark fantasy sites, as well as a lot of band sites.

    Even if we accept that to be true, and that following a predominant ascetic within a niche can sometimes be a good idea, the site is in no way of professional quality. Sorry, it just isn’t. It was not created by a designer with any real understanding of design principles.

27. 27. Merrie Haskell on Nov 11th, 2010 at 8:01 am

    Agreed, Patrick. Example of the black background aesthetic done well: http://www.loose-id.com/

28. 28. Jeff Hotchkiss on Nov 11th, 2010 at 8:17 am

    I love the website’s navigation menu. Particularly, the ISBN, Sex Rating, and Violence Rating options. The design is certainly amateurish, but those menu options put it over the top. Hmmm… I haven’t been able to find 9781615720095 ANYWHERE! Let me check the publisher’s website to see if they have it listed in a giant dropdown list.

29. 29. Ilan Lerman on Nov 11th, 2010 at 10:02 am

    I have absolutely nothing personal against Damnation Books. They came up in discussion with my writing group, and we decided against submitting to them as they looked dubious and a bit amateurish (and image is everything to the casual observer). My comment on the Realms of Fantasy Facebook status update was – “Is this the same Damnation Books that has a Not Recommended rating on Preditors and Editors as a publisher?” To then have that swiftly deleted without answer just raises alarm bells for me – apart from being rude.

    Now having read Kim’s response above, which seemed wildly defensive and out of context as nobody claimed anything about ‘hating on’ Damnation Books. The only thing Tobias seemed to be saying was to exercise ‘caution’.

    And finally, I would be wary of submitting anything to an editor that uses a phrase like ‘hating on’. How exactly do you ‘hate on’ someone? Do you have to be physically on top of them?

30. 30. Patrick Samphire on Nov 11th, 2010 at 10:54 am

    I would like to add that I do know the difference between ascetic and aesthetic. Despite evidence to the contrary…

31. 31. Kathryn Meyer Griffith on Nov 11th, 2010 at 2:25 pm

    Hi Tobias and everyone.
    At first I wasn’t going to comment but, for Kim, DB and EP’s sake, I will. First off, I’m one of DB’s happy authors. They’ve published 2 of my new books in the last six months and will rerelease 7 of my old Zebra and Leisure paperbacks in the next 18 months. Rewritten (the best editors I’ve ever had), and with new covers (stunning, and they let me tell them what I wanted on the covers). DB is only about a year old and they’ve been growing/getting better/learning the whole time. Kim was an editor with EP before she started DB and then took over EP, as well. She knows her stuff. I’m an author (39 years now with 14 published novels – from Leisure Books, Zebra Books, and others going back 26 years- and 7 published short stories) and I’ve seen it all. Kim, DB and EP are not only the most professional I’ve ever worked with…but the nicest. Kim actually scanned in by hand all my seven old paperbacks so I could revise them. She and my editors have bent over backward to make my books the best they can be. To be perfect. I’ve never edited so much! Kim wants to grow DB, EP and now Realms and, after working closely with her the last nine months, I believe she’s just the lady to do it. There…that’s my two cents (more like five, ha). I just want everyone to know that this pro loves DB and all their hard work. Give her and DB a chance. I rarely, if ever, stick my neck out like this….but I just had to. Oh, take a look at my new releases at DB! It’s been great to see my old ones reborn. Warmly, author Kathryn Meyer Griffith rdgriff@htc.net

32. 32. Rob on Nov 11th, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    That’s a lot of titles for a publisher that’s been in business for about a year.

33. 33. Jon Hansen on Nov 11th, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Well, I see from Doug Cohen that he & Shawna are coming back to their old positions, old creative control, old website, etc.: http://douglascohen.livejournal.com/262802.html

    So. Factor that in, I’d say.

34. 34. Rachel Swirsky on Nov 11th, 2010 at 10:48 pm

    Just for the record, the contributors have now been notified.

    I’m gratified that Shawna and Doug will remain at the helm.

35. 35. jeff vandermeer on Nov 12th, 2010 at 1:02 pm

    Tobias: Honestly? Seems like giving the benefit of the doubt might be better than being the Harbinger of Impending Doom. In most situations.

    jv

36. 36. tobias buckell on Nov 12th, 2010 at 1:22 pm

    In most situations I’m not the Harbinger of Impending Doom. I hardly sit around critiquing new magazine launches.

    In this case I stand by my title “tread carefully.” There are warning signs here, not impending doom.

37. 37. Ed Erdelac on Nov 13th, 2010 at 9:07 pm

    DB’s been publishing my weird western series, and I’m glad they’re taking a chance on it. Please look up the reviews from around the web and on Amazon. I really don’t think they’re publishing ‘just anything’ as somebody suggested. I haven’t had any more problems with them than I have with any other publisher. Don’t know what’s up with Preditors and Editors. I did read some complaints from another author who wanted to get out of his contract, but frankly he seemed a little irrational and he didn’t respond to my comment. I’m no seasoned pro, but I’m no amateur either. I certainly don’t feel taken advantage of. Personally the aesthetics of the website aren’t a factor to me in anything I submit to. Like someone else said above, I find most of my sales come through Amazon anyway.

38. 38. Wyman Cooke on Nov 14th, 2010 at 12:33 am

    This is for C M Saunders:

    If you want to be a great Damnation Ally, you might want to be careful about throwing around the phrase “amateurs.” Tobias is a Tor Books author. Jim Hines is published by DAW. Both have more credibility with me than you do. I’m sorry if that sounds snippy; I’m developing a cold and my temper is not what it usually is.

    Having just read this thread tonight I don’t know if Kim’s version of the events on AW is true; if time permits I will look into it. I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt barring other information. That said, I would take exception with her remark that Tobias’ post was “hating.” The title was “Tread Carefully.” It was not “Don’t Go There,” or “Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here.” All he was suggesting was caution, and that maybe they could have better website design (blue text on a black background, really?).